Sat, 14 Feb 2009 German Mac clone maker willing to take on Apple

Richie said on Sat, 14 Feb 2009

So in germany we can buy music and if no restriction are forced, then we have the right to give away copies to others of that music.

I think germany law is strange, Apple's OS is an upgrade and without a previous installed copy that only comes with every new mac, the mac it selft valids the copy, they are saying if they buy an upgrade copy of Windows they can install on a blank machine.

Charlie said on Sat, 14 Feb 2009

No Richie, this is about software. The German law is very clear and concise. If Apple (or anybody else) want to sell software in the country there are a clear set of rules to follow. The EULA cannot be hidden inside the package or on a website, but clear to read at time of purchase at point of sales.

Do not expect the same support Apple get in the US.

Paul said on Sun, 15 Feb 2009

Well surely the answer to that is simple, for Snow leopard they put that section of the EULA on the outside of the pack.

Charlie said on Sun, 15 Feb 2009

That's correct, but as it stands Apple may not have a case. It's the problem of large companies not understanding local laws.

Most software companies changed the EULA display in Germany years ago.

Elliot Richards said on Sun, 15 Feb 2009

What about automatic software updates? Would these somehow be disabled for non-Apple hardware? If a third party wins, would Apple be forced to make software updates work on non-Apple hardware? Would anyone seriously consider a clone to work trouble free for years to come? I'm sure there will be some sort of preventative measure from Apple, a change in the EULA or other action that would scupper a clone. Despite this uncertainty I've yet to see a clone look as good as a Mac. They all look far too generic, like Windows PC's, which aren't built with aesthetics in mind.

koen said on Sun, 15 Feb 2009

they are built with price and profit in mind. a clone maker trying to beat apple in the aestetics game would be dangerously delusional. A good, upgradeable price / performance setup is easy to make, since Apple isn't interested in that market segment anyway.

Nick F said on Sun, 15 Feb 2009

They can't just change the EULA, the software is out there now and still on sale. Apple, like every other software company have to understand the local market or suffer - in this case they may well suffer. If (big if) the case against Apple was won then another would be sure to follow to insisting on support.

If you spend the money asked by Apple PC on a Windows PC the machines are built solid, you are bundling every Windows PC into one. I have used Mac's for many years now and find the new laptops ugly as sin - all in the eye (or pocket) of the beholder.

@Keon said on Sun, 15 Feb 2009

You are right - Apple don't want you to upgrade your components, they want you to upgrade the whole machine. But after loosing most of their desktop share they are in a very limited market, that due to the economy, is shrinking.

SL will be a massive cash-cow, because they will start locking-in software. The next iLife & iWork will probably only run (or with most features)on SL (iLife 09 is started the ball rolling).

Ted Landry said on Sun, 15 Feb 2009

Pear is so screwed! They have zero chance of winning this, so why even bother? Apple has completely crushed Psystar in court, Pear will be no different. This will just be an expensive lesson for Pear, that's all.

And @Keon, 70% of Apple sales are now laptops, since the market for desktops is vanishing. And the economy won't effect Apple, they will continue with record sales each and every quarter. 2,504,00 macs sold in the last 90 days alone, another record. Lastly, Apple makes it easy to upgrade components, so you clearly are out of touch with current Apple machines.

thomcarl said on Sun, 15 Feb 2009

What a bunch of frigtards, Apple doesn't have to sell systems or software in Germany. Germany is a drop in the bucket as far as Apple is concerned. Apples market share for both desk tops and lap tops is growing in the far east and the Americas and most countries of the EU in comparison to PC's. If you install OS X on your clone, Apple has no obligation to support your computer or the misused copy of OS X, one software upgrade from apple can brick your computer. in addition Apple has only to add a chip of their design to the logic board that would make it impossible for OS X to run on any thing but an Apple system, Apples logic boards are their design, and not something you can buy at a kit store. The idea that Apples EULA is not enforceable is a pipe dream, which Psystar and PearC will find out the hard way, they are going to get there butts handed to them on a plater.

Richie said on Sun, 15 Feb 2009

One can't buy a Windows Upgrade edition for a blank machine, one has to buy the full version of Windows, Mac OS X is an Upgrade as the Full version is installed on every Mac you buy.

Also installing on an none Apple hardware simply will not work correctly, things that make Mac OS X work fully are just not in none Apple hardware.

Richie said on Sun, 15 Feb 2009

Theirs one more thing.

Take a possible clone of a PSP or PS3 and they install Sony's firmware on it and sell it, they will be sued in seconds and fully backed by the law, Sony's software, you don't buy any OS not even Windows what the consumer buys is the lincence to use it in way the lincence describe it to be used.

None said on Sun, 15 Feb 2009

@Richie

Part of the problem is Apple sells mostly FULL versions of OSX at the retail level. The only "upgrades" they sell are if you had happened to buy a machine a few weeks after an OS release came out. So what these unethical firms are doing it is buying full versions of OSX and putting on shoddily built PCs.

That obviously won't work, so it will be fun to watch Apple shut them down.

If someone wants to build a Mac clone for personal use, fine, but the moment you try and profit from Apple's efforts, your doors will be closed. It's that simple.

Gunter T said on Sun, 15 Feb 2009

Apple stand little chance of shutting them down. You don't understand German law.

None said on Mon, 16 Feb 2009

@Gunter

It's not about German law, it's about International Politics. Apple is far too strong in Germany to allow PearC to steal intellectual property, the EU will simply not allow it.

Yes, Apple may need to adjust some packaging, but after that, PearC will no longer sell machines with OSX.

That's how business works, learn to deal with it.

Martin Kelly said on Mon, 16 Feb 2009

What a load of crap. I've never bought a product which has the full set of Terms & Conditions printed on the packaging. Just another cheap shot to profit from Apple Genius. I wonder how they would feel if we started putting BMW, Merc or Porsche badges on any old car?

Tim H said on Mon, 16 Feb 2009

It's about German law - if you trade in a country, you trade under that country's law. Same anywhere in the world.

@Martin Kelly said on Mon, 16 Feb 2009

This is a software law only and has been around for some years. Long enough for Apple to get their house straight.

But, like many big American companies, they don't see further than the US coastline.

Haku said on Mon, 16 Feb 2009

I hope they fail, but HyperMegaNet is one the funniest names for a company ever.

Mick Lozano said on Mon, 16 Feb 2009

I think is time to let us make the choice for ourselves. They will be keep selling the OSX and we have the right to choose the hardware. I understand that quality is at stake here, but you can always modify that later on on a never ending upgrades.

@Ted Landry said on Mon, 16 Feb 2009

"And the economy won't effect Apple, they will continue with record sales each and every quarter." - I would love to bet all YOUR money on that. Dream on.

VJ said on Mon, 16 Feb 2009

@Ted Landry

"Lastly, Apple makes it easy to upgrade components, so you clearly are out of touch with current Apple machines." - when did you last upgrade your sound card, CPU or motherboard? You don't becuase you can't.

Tom said on Mon, 16 Feb 2009

Allegedly, these clone outbreaks are funded by Micros**t, in response to Steve J*bs writing the Conficker virus! Only joking!

Alan Smith said on Mon, 16 Feb 2009

Apple posts their EULA agreement online. Therefore, the argument that you cannot view the EULA agreement until after you purchase the product is false. Just wait until the Apple lawyers in Germany go after this cheap rip-off company. Stealing is staling in any country, Germany, Japan, or the U.S.

Tinker said on Mon, 16 Feb 2009

"Apple posts their EULA agreement online" - that is not legal in Germany, if you don't like it the don't sell there.

It stops the software houses hiding or changing the wording.

Mike Dorch said on Mon, 16 Feb 2009

American Law will TRUMP German Law at every turn. The EU will demand it.

PearC has no choice but to end the illegal selling of OSX. The EULA is perfectly enforceable even though some German laws are obsolete when it comes to computing.

Good riddance to PearC is the only outcome.

Drew said on Mon, 16 Feb 2009

Anyone who thinks the EU will side with an American corporation over German Law must be out of their tree. The EU would love to stick 2 fingers up at corporate America (again!)

Paul Samson said on Mon, 16 Feb 2009

Yes, Apple growth won't be effected by a global recession. Apple isn't structured in that way, so even if things get much, much worse, Apple will still grow by huge margins each quarter.

People need to realize Apple can release new products when sales are needed, run a few ads, and they will maintain 30% growth.

Apple just isn't geared to people that might be effected by a recession, they never played into that type of market.

It's the power of having the most powerful machine for the least amount of money. OSX is the undisputed leader in the UNIX community, and low cost Macs have now cemented Apple's strength for decades to come.

Paul Samson said on Mon, 16 Feb 2009

@ Drew

Yes, Drew, but Apple isn't really an American firm, it's a world based entity. Apple was run by a German for 4 years in the 90's so Apple's power over the German political system is paramount.

The EU basically will have no regard for a company STEALING intellectual copyright, so the obsolete German Laws won't matter in this situation.

It's basically PearC will be closed down, end of story.

WRONG said on Mon, 16 Feb 2009

The German law will be upheld. I promise you.

Jamie said on Mon, 16 Feb 2009

You lot really have no idea of local law. I am sorry to say but Apple are in the wrong here. The German laws changed some years ago and they have had plenty of time to adjust the packaging.

KenC said on Tue, 17 Feb 2009

So, based upon a technicality, German companies can break, commonly-accepted business practice. Woohoo! Let's move to Germany. Wait until they get their copyrights and IP violated, and we'll see who is crying.

KenC said on Tue, 17 Feb 2009

Sure, it's a German thing, but just because something is a law, and legally and technically correct, does not make it ethically or morally correct.

Petey said on Tue, 17 Feb 2009

All Apple needs to do is put up posters in it's stores with the EULA on by the software packs and then make sure that all their software can only be installed on official Apple hardware.

As Apple only have a small market share of global OS market this would not be considered a monopoly too.

Simon L said on Tue, 17 Feb 2009

When does "ethically or morally correct" ever show it's face in the corporate world - grow up.

"All Apple needs to do is put up posters in it's stores with the EULA" - it is too late for that, they have been caught with their trousers down.

Still - it all hides the fact that the latest update screwed up Perl on our machines!!!!

Dragonfly said on Tue, 17 Feb 2009

As I understand it, if you buy a retail package you don't own the software, you just own a licence to use it (with Mac Hardware Only !!!). If you don't agree with the licence you return the goods. In the same way buying a DVD doesn't then permit you to set up a Cinema and show it to paying customers. PearC are in breach of their licence agreement by customising the product and installing it on their own product. The operating system is a 50% component of what a Mac actually is, so if Apple ever decided it was OK for a 3rd party company to use Mac OS X, they would need to pay Apple to cover the losses they make from a drop in hardware sales. That will be much more than the upgrade cost of £79, more like £400 ! If this is an anomaly with German law, then the law will need to be modified, otherwise Apple may need to arrange something differently with regards to Mac in Germany.

JJ said on Tue, 17 Feb 2009

"If this is an anomaly with German law, then the law will need to be modified, otherwise Apple may need to arrange something differently with regards to Mac in Germany." - It would have to be the latter.

Lucy Lon said on Tue, 17 Feb 2009

If German law was that poor, criminal organizations would quickly move to Germany and seal xBox, Playstation, Tivo, etc.

That is not the case, so it's obviously a overlooked loophole that will be corrected so PearC cannot steal other people's efforts.

Apple or Germany will shut them down posthaste. PearC is a dead company within 6 months.

TJ said on Tue, 17 Feb 2009

German law is not that poor - it is straight forward. If Apple don't bother learning about where they sell they deserve to get there a**e kicked.

Everyone else who sells there changed years ago. Only Apple seem dumb.

Eddie said on Tue, 17 Feb 2009

All those people who seem to think German law is so strong and that will mean that Apple will lose this fight are blinkered.
The OS is not sold, it is licensed, just like Windows. New PCs are sold with licensed copies of Windows installed and Microsoft is paid a fee per machine.
If any company was to sell a PC and supply a copy of Windows or OSX without payment of the licence, that company would be in breach of the law.
And that works even in the mighty law courts of Germany (because it certainly would be upheld by the EU)

alex said on Wed, 18 Feb 2009

Now without PPC "different" hardware, each Mac IS a pc.
A computer and its os are two different entities. Apple should promote the wide spread of OS X. Making the opposite is reversal of performance and commerce.
I think Apple forbids to avoid other pc maker to make computers with a nice design and selling them cheaper.
Apple also don't want their os to run on an unreliable hardware. Those restrictions must soon fall.

Ted Landry said on Wed, 18 Feb 2009

@ Alex

No, a Mac is far from a PC... keep in mind Apple fully designs their products from the eyeball, to the tip of your finger, while PCs vendors are just off the shelf part assembly operations with no regard for the user.

OSX can't correctly run on PCs since the proper hardware isn't in place, so that will never happen.

So it's not about price, but "quality" of what Apple provides the user.

There would never be a reason to put OSX on shoddily built PCs since Macs are priced about the same nowadays, and the risk of a user running OSX on a poor quality system could hurt Apple's reputation, and nobody wants that.

So let's all work as a group to shut down PearC, so everyone has an option of having a quality computing device if they so choose.

Steve Ballmer said on Mon, 23 Feb 2009

PearC FTW!

Steve Ballmer said on Tue, 24 Feb 2009

PearC FTW!

Martin Kelly said on Tue, 24 Feb 2009

Its quite simple really, Apple make their OS work by designing and building the entire system. Thats what it says on the tin. If you want to use OS X then you have to buy their PC's. If you want to run Windows buy a PC for that purpose, if you want to run Linux, by a PC for that purpose.
No one is forced to buy apple products, its your choice. What you don't have is the right to buy OSX and run it on a non-apple product. Thats the deal that you know about when spending your money.
Those that use apple products do so because they chose to, for all the benefits that they perceive to be important to them. If your not happy with this arrangement buy something different, but stop trying to change things to suite your own way of seeing things.
Let us that enjoy Macs get on with it in peace.
Get a Mac, Get a Life.

Aaron said on Mon, 02 Mar 2009

PearC and Phystar
FOR THE WIN.